Posts by Band on the Run

95

Is Liberal Christianity Smug and Arrogant?

by leavingwt in

jw
friends

is liberal christianity smug and arrogant?.

the liberal christian finds himself in a belief system that would be unfamiliar to the overwhelming majority of christians who've lived and died before him, over the past two thousand years.

is the liberal christian, in effect, saying to these previous christians, "you were doing it wrong.

Band on the Run

Obviously, there are different ways to interpret the Bible in good faith. I feel my mainstream Protestant theology is more Bible-based than the black and white fundamentalists. How can one interpet it without a knowledge of the several languages that were used? New findings in archaeology reveal clearly Paul's opponents. The Nag Hammadi scriptures were found by accident during an early Arab-Isreali war. I submit no one can know what the canonical gospels say without reading these alternative scriptures.

God cannot be defined by human language terms. Human language can attempt to describe God but must fall short because God is that which is not human. I studied New Testament at college, with some exposure to grad work in Gnosticism. Since those crucial years, I've continued my studies. Frequently, I feel there is some thwarted JW in me because I place almost too emphasis on this factual material. Spirituality, rather, is how I apply the concepts learned in my real life where Cecil B. DeMile experiences are least likely. The more I study the more I know we can only guess in good faith. Knowledge brings humility.

When I flip cable stations, I come across fundamentalist ministers thumping their Bibles. Typically, they don't address Jesus' radical gospels. Rather, it is how to donate money to their preaching. Their stupidity and lack of sophistication stands out. Jesus was no stickler for rules. He addressed large issues of life. Love was the driving force.

6

Did Pope Approve the New World Translation "JW Bible"?

by cameo-d in

i read somewhere that the vatican has to approve all translations.. if they had to approve the nwt, wouldn't that mean that the jws come under the jurisdiction of the papacy?.

Band on the Run

The early Bible translators frequently ran afoul of the politcal power exerted by the Vatican. People were martyred. Today the imprintaur on the book stating it is acceptable to the Vatican, leads many people to ignore the book in lieu of one not approved by the Vatican. A modern example is The Last Temptation of Christ. It had a scholarly, nice article. The Cardinal of New York forbade Catholics to see it. When I arrived at the theatre, a line snaked around the block of upscale NYers, reading The New York Times and bestsellers, as they waited to enter. No one was going to tell them what to watch. A small group of polyester clad Greek Christians protested. Altho written by a Greek author, I am certain not one of them read the book or understood its concepts.

I cannot possibly conceive that the Vatican with its vast resources would approve the WTBTS Bible. The notion is comical. The Witnesses purposely mistranslated words so that the New World Translation would bolster JW doctrine. The doctrine evolved, then the New World Translation. I don't see how the Pope would ever endorse Manson's interpretation of Helter Skelter by the Beatles. Likewise, why would the New World Translation be approved.

Bible translations are available that were prepared by scholars with no deep ties to any religion. The doctrines should proceed from the Bible and tradition, not the other way around.

11

The power and assertive years ( approx. 30 to 45 )

by caliber in

jw
friends

my personal observation is that these (30-45) years are the coming together of physical, emotional and mental power, a time when.

most reach the desire , confidence and need to speak out to speak out about all injustice they see around them.. my personal opinion is that after reaching this stage in life you mellow out in your 50's .

i make this claim by personal life experience.

Band on the Run

So many of the Founding Fathers played key roles in defining the Constitution and Revolutionary Generation in their older years. Gandhi was no spring chicken - maybe in So. Africa but not in India.

I believe I learned skills as I aged to buffer my presentations so that I could actually achieve something concrete rather than a raised revolutionary fist. My core is the same as ever. The Witnesses are a good example. I used to fight with them when they came to my door. My reaction was almost as bad as their presumption that they know more than I do. Now I smile and gently encourage them to read a Bible without Witness aid.

Of course, this winds me up. I heard so much antiCatholic venom growing up. They make the Vatican look like a scientific convention of open-minded scholars.

24

Vatican Confesses That Jesus Was An Exageration Based on Roman Prince?

by PublishingCult in

this news article may have already been posted .

[b][size=125]vatican confesses: jesus story "an exaggeration" based on roman prince[/size][/b].

[size=85]posted by susan maureen brandt on thursday, november 4, 2010. my "vatican" press release is officially gone from free-press-release.com.

Band on the Run

Do you want to buy a bridge that goes to Brooklyn, NY?

11

For this Christmas Britain is a majority non-religious nation (first time ever)

by behemot in

jw
friends

religion: respecting the minority.

this christmas, for perhaps the first time ever, britain is a majority non-religious nation.

every year, researchers from the british social attitudes survey ask a representative sample of british people whether they regard themselves as belonging to any particular religion and, if so, to which one?

Band on the Run

The C of E reigns. The survey probably merely reflects the fact of immigration from former colonies that are not traditionally Christian. I wonder what the numbers would be among white, anglo-saxons. I've noticed a backlash in the states against "Happy Holidays." People who never would have made a point of it before (including me) now go out of their to wish a holy Christmas or Merry Christmas.

Season's Greetings always sounded so elegant. Happy Holidays sounds so commercial.

95

Is Liberal Christianity Smug and Arrogant?

by leavingwt in

jw
friends

is liberal christianity smug and arrogant?.

the liberal christian finds himself in a belief system that would be unfamiliar to the overwhelming majority of christians who've lived and died before him, over the past two thousand years.

is the liberal christian, in effect, saying to these previous christians, "you were doing it wrong.

Band on the Run

I am shocked by the sloppy thinking involved in this question. Liberal Christianity is a meaningless term. I am a progressive Christian. Speaking for myself (since I can only speak for myself), I base my theology on the Bible, the Word of God. I study the culture of the time to understand how Jesus would have viewed the scriptures that were acknowledged in his day. Psalm 23 reads one way to Christians but another way to Jewish people. Jesus was born a Jew and died a Jew. Of course, I am history buff so I enjoy reading about the controversies in the church. The Church was diverse and anyone who thinks they can define Christianity definitively does not know Christian history.

I attend church regularly. My Christianity compels me to help the poor. I also feel that being a Christian is being civic minded and active in my local community in the old-fashioned ways, such as food pantries, Heifer International and soup kitchens. Jesus commanded no less. I am keenly aware that if I were born in a different culture, I would most likely not be Christian.

Finally, I enjoy reading alternate depictions of Jesus, not for their veracity, but for how the inherent tensions of God made flesh are reconciled. Tolstoy wrote fiction concerning Christ. My favorite is The Last Temptation of Christ by Katzenzakis (sp?). I can't forget Gnostic Christianity. During my college years, I studied at Columbia with Elaine Pagels. Gnosticism does not appeal to me but I have new appreciation for creedal statements and beliefs as a result. Christianity flourished b/c it was diverse. We may not have received the purest Christianity but certainly one that evolved enough to stand the test of time. Orthodox Christianity's emphasis on the importance of our physical bodies was a new find for me. Altho I am Anglican, my local community tends to place great interest in the Eastern Church.

Certainly, the right wing has no authority to hijack the church. Obama spoke of this in his famous speech at the convention. I don't want to repeat the obvious mistakes of right-wing Christianity so I will grant that a conservative person can as readily be Christian as a progressive. The favor is rarely returned. Of course, one can always do a WTBTS and proclaim one's private, exclusive view is the only way. My God is expansive.

47

Ton Ten REASONS why Jehovah's Witnesses simply can't abide reality

by Terry in

jw
friends

1.the organization itself denies access to reality and substitutes its own version, interpretations and meanings.. a.only watchtower approved publications are allowed.. b.no higher education is to be pursued.. c.no non-jw friends or associations are encouraged with their "outside" points of view.. d.no free-style questioning of doctrine or criticism permitted.

curiousity is verboten.. e.threat of being "marked" or disassociated looms over them.

2.between every real-world event and the rank and file jw's mind is a roadblock.. a.the moment of identifying is short-circuited by an interpretive moment of re-labeling in watchtower-speak.. b.all things happening are forced into a narrow storyline and propagandized as end times happenings leading to armageddon.. 3.social and personal identity is expunged and replaced by a collective persona: "jehovah's witness".. a.private thinking is red-flagged as selfish and sinful.. b.personal improvement, welfare and ambition is crushed and door-to-door ministry substituted as "worthy" endeavors.. c.self-conscious obsession permeates witness awareness as each person is transformed into a public spectacle of performance for judgement.. d.since you aren't an individual you don't really have a right to fall in love and marry or educate or earn.

Band on the Run

Very well done. More effective than arguing doctrinal dispute. My father was a bodyguard to Rutherford and Knorr. He had been a coal miner when Joe Leiws organized the UMW. Lewis impressed my father who was secretly prounion. The union is stronger than religion in those very small company towns. It disturbed him deeply that the Witnesses did not provide for their own. They are so antigovernment one would expect that they would take the lead in providing services, at least to fellow Witnesses. Jesus promotes a radical social gospel. But then again, who is Jesus? Only God.

The Witnesses I knew, which may not be typical, were ignorant. They were functionally illiterate. It was so embarassing being in a 98% black congregation when all the big shots were white. And how those white males were adored by helpless sisters who could run their own lives just fine. Questioning itself is viewed as demonic. My father loved to research and debate but it led him into corners that frustrated him. He despised Catholics and fought with them over the Bible at work to the point where his job was going, going, gone. He met his match in a seminarian. It had to do with the translation of spirit. He admitted defeat and spiraled into a depression.

If one could ever pry them away where they had to interact with people and use their own minds, I feel most would leave --save for shunning.

Jesus words are emphatic. My uncle did time at Danbury during WWII. I can totally believe that no support was given. My mom was traumatized to her death b/c this family friend that she may have married was young and brash. He went beyond what his lawyers told him to say to the judge. He stood up and preached to the judge with fervor, an action that cost him three more years. The judge was a jerk. Isn't there a famous phrase when someone who was blacklisted was told he had many supporters. He said he was surprised b/c when he appeared before the judge no one would even smile at him. It is a funny phrase.

My private life has always involved dumbing down for approval while the rest of society expects competence and brilliance from me. It is hard to go from one extreme to the other. Intelligence is a gift of God. I once argued that if J. wanted women so servient why weren't we all born with mental retardation. God should want all our strengths and then more.

39

Question for Board/Current JWs re Holy Spirit/holy spirit...

by AGuest in

jw
friends

may you all have peace!.

in another post, a dear one mentioned that a jw relative ceased being... ummmm... contentious, when the dear one told her that, after praying about it, they were allowing themselves "to be guided by holy spirit and not doctrine from a man-made organization.

" that the latter felt "wrong.

Band on the Run

Doesn't Paul write eloquently of the "fruits of the spirit" in Corinithians or it Romans. The book is acknowledged by all to be authentically Paul. He mentions various gifts, such as speaking in tongues (which he does not find very useful), prophecy,etc. but the most important is love. I never experienced the Witnesses as having a single gift of the Holy Spirit, let alone being the Holy Spirit itself.

Despite being raised a Witness, I find the experience so embarassing. Would you buy the Brooklyn Bridge from someone on the subway? They refuse to engage in any true discussion. They not only run from debate, they run from discussion. I have a host of Protestant and some Catholic scholarly aids. During one subway ride, I spied some Bethelites. You just know they are Bethelites from the odd dress and body language. I sat next to one and flirt, trotting out my family's credentials which are extraordinary. They become almost orgasmic. Then, they realize I revealed nothing about myself. I purposely string the conversation along, deflecting questions until my stop is next. I announce I actually read a Bible and found the Witness lies. Further, I know stuff from family members at Bethel that would utterly shock them. I never flirt. The Witnesses robbed me of my flirting gene.

Do people here feel it is worth the ever to be able to refute every last belief in case the Witnesses mistakenly knock at the door. I've lived in large apt. buildings in Manhattan and private complexes. It is not public property. I briefly tell them they should read the Bible on their own and then consider whether the Witnesses tell Bible truth. Next, I ask for the name of the tenant or management agent that let them on the property because without my confirming their permission to be on the premises, I am telephoning the police for trespass.

I often feel it is futile to talk to them. Talking to them even briefly as I slam and bolt the door triggers all the old shame in me. When it is noon outside and they proclaim it is the darkest night, I am uncomfortable. Nothing I could ever show my relatives would ever work. Also, adults have a right to believe crazy stuff. Children are a very different story. I became a lawyer to protect Witness children. My faith is complex and sophisticated. I have doubts. This is called maturity. Part of me, a small part, found the absolutely certainty comforting. Persecution itself has an upside. Rather than running, my belief was stronger.

OFF TOPIC- Mostly, I run into them at Penn Station or Center City, Philadelphia in the transit buildings. They sit with each other. As a child, I stood up and bothered people. I actively looked in their faces and begged them to take a magazine. Invariably, their conversation is so engaged, if I wanted a Watchtower so badly that I would commit a crime or pay a billion dollars, one cannot disrupt them. It annoys me this is Witness time. Are there rules about witnessing on Internet sites? I see it more and more frequently. A nice one is active on wikipedia without disclosing his Witness stature expressly.

I remain terrified of holy rollers and other Pentecostals. Altho Paul does list "speaking in tongues" , I can't tolerate even being within five miles of someone speaking in tongues. Demons on the loose! Santierra candles appear in NY Roman Catholic and Anglican churches. My cultural bias is strong.

The Holy Spirit is tricky. Henry VIII's persecutions. Slaughter of the Hugenots. The Inquistion. It seems to approach God when no political power is involved. As a New Yorker, 9/11 shook me to my very core. We responded admirably. It strikes me that the Taliban and the WTBTS are the same creature.

18

A look at Jehovah's Witnesess ethics

by Hobo Ken in

jw
friends

this post is to expose the unethical, un-scriptural actions of the men involved in the "judicial" processes of jehovah's witneses.

the lack of fair minded impartial justice shown to me during my "judicial" case is a result of what they (the elders) are directed to do by the governing body of jehovah's witnesess.

many people have been through similar and will do again in the future, sadly.

Band on the Run

It is true that I was a raised a Witness in an extended family of Witnesses. My parents were neither in nor out. We were allowed leeway at home but if relatives visited there would be frenetic activity removing my baby sister's pilgrims from walls and the sort. I attended a very low socioeconomic Kingdom Hall with problems resulting from the culture. I was so envious of people my age (teenagers) who were dedicated early. Soon, there would be two and three disfellowships announced per week for sexual behavior. Disfellowshipping was a frequent occurrence so perhaps not at the very first but a relatively new person could see the role disfellowshipping took. I always thought it was worse when your family were Witnesses. Many hours I plotted ways to have my parents more in the mainstream so my grandmother and aunts would love me unreservedly, the way my cousins were loved.

I became Anglican after years of questioning and not understanding. Part of it was acknowledgment that not everything can be tied up neatly and that questions lead to a more important truth. After I decided to become Episcopal, I waited until women were ordained with the full blessing of General Convention. Menstruation is not filthy. Women are not unclean.

Equity demands clean hands. Communist China under Mao and the Soviet Union under Stalin had constitutions that proclaimed the same liberties held sacred by Anglo/Americans. Only the reality was very different. Imagine Jesus or St. Paul conducting these hearings.

I apologize for my glibness concerning the pain imposed by these actions. The world has claimed me for decades. The JC could serve a valuable function in waking one up to the fundamental nature of the Witnesses. Indeed, when I was active, the isolation was unbearable. Now we can communicate 24/7 here. The truth is I actually felt physical pains about rejection. When I performed completely, I still felt unworthy. Once Fundamentalists Anonymous appeared on the Regis Philbin show when it was still a local NY show. The man spoke movingly of the Witnesses and the Armstrong church. I telephoned the producers to get his contact information. When I told him my enduring pain from being a Witness, he admonished me. I had a college and law degree, good friends, excellent mother, top jobs. He said he was doing emergency work with suicidal people. Suicidal people who had zero social supports.

I don't believe the pain is in doctrinal disputes. Witnesses are not taught to have good self-esteem. Creation is so bad. They are discouraged from seeking help outside of the organization. As a teenager, I found it very painful to realize the divinely appointed brothers could not read on an elementary school level. I did not leap into the lap of the world. Rather, I bumbled and stumbled, awkwardly for a long while. Despite no belief, 1975 was sheer hell on earth. I was very interested in politics but hid it from my Witness relatives.

God wants us to live and to live abundantly. Witness life is enduring pain. When I started college, I thought all my problems would disappear in a culture where I would flourish. I carried baggage from the Witnesses. Things that are so easy now were so difficult then. I could not dance. Social introductions were awkward. It did not happen overnight. Going to an art museum was strange. Now I eat arugula with relish.

1

Ancient Christian Prayer

by Band on the Run in

jw
friends

when i was very ill with agonizing pain, near death, the christian writer madeleine l'engle copied this ancient christian prayer for me".

from all ill dreams defend our eyes,.

from mighty fears and phantasies.

Band on the Run

When I was very ill with agonizing pain, near death, the Christian writer Madeleine L'Engle copied this ancient Christian prayer for me"

From all ill dreams defend our eyes,

From mighty fears and phantasies

Tread under foot the ghostly foe

That no pollution we may know

And make the echtroi far to go.

I had no clue who she was. She wrote A Wrinkle in Time, a popular Christian book, dealing with witches and time travel. Madeleine would write in the library of the Cathedral Church of St. John the Divine with her beloved dogs. When I was so desperate, I spent hours being consoled by her. She could have spent her time in the Oak Room at the Plaza but she showered me with love. The director of volunteers also nourished me. Jesus ministered to me through them.

Recently, I was hard up for money as in no money for food vs. can't ring up everything at Bloomingdale/s. My local Epsicopal priest treated me horribly. She heaped shame on me. I cried so hard. My landlord told me to get in touch with the Catholic St. Vincent de Paul Society. They came to my home that night. Words can't convey how loving they were. I felt that Jesus came to me in my time of trial. If I were not so Biblically-based, I would have converted on the spot. Jesus is powerful. I never experienced Jesus in the WTBTS. The Holy Spirit sustains me.